Advance Fatigue

Zeus
1

I am making this post to talk about the advance Fatigue that is being used in the current ace set-up, from what I’m hearing from a lot of players is that it is very disliked and not in a good state for public play, not to say that it would not work well with a group setting like NAK TAC, but that during public ops, its causing people to be out of pos due to not being able to move like they are used to, while I think the concept of it was a good idea, I think from a players point of view is that it removes from enjoyment, and for those who make the argument that it’s realistic, in its current state, it would not be, as the standard combat kit would be that of 65kg, medic carry more.

I’m more putting this up to let people voice their opinions as I feel most of the players don’t like making the first post.

While we are at it, could the fortify function be added to the server?

2

I find that stamina greatly adds to my enjoyment and while I’m not opposed to further tweaking of the settings, I would be quite sad to see it go.

That said, I hope others do speak up on what their concerns are specifically. I hear a lot of general groaning, but not really a lot of details… that would likely help with whatever changes could be made.

oh, and +1 for the fortify option.

3

Hey all,

I have no issue with the stamina in its current state. I think the largest issue here is that players are not used to it yet, and do not know the limits of the weights they can carry. I have played on servers where the struggle against stamina is much more severe, and really limits what a player can bring. From my own experience playing I have been able to bring 10 mags + medical + grenades and only suffer in certain situations where there are extended periods of time spent running. The goal for the stamina like many of the latest mods that have been enabled in the zeus server is to encourage tactical approaches to the game. When I have spoken with other players who were upset with the stamina it is often time because they are carrying excessive amounts of gear, that in most cases could last them an entire 2 hour operation so long as they are playing smart. While there is nothing inherently wrong with this, we often have several resupply points throughout missions, and zeus’s often are responsive to requests for resupplies to some capacity. Personally I think we need to encourage lighter loads, and just making use of timely resupplies from zeus, rather than trying to bring an arsenal large enough to last an entire mission.

In the end it really is what does command want out of the zeus server, is it meant to encourage a more tactical approach from vanilla with more coordination, or is it just supposed to give players another option to play. Personally from talking to command members it seems like they, and many others outside of command are really enjoying the pace of what the zeus server provides, providing a much different experience from altis, while keeping it within Nak, which to me only helps to grow Nak itself, by being able to accommodate more players.

My recommendation to resolve our problems is 2 different options, however encouraging a lighter loadout should be the goal for either:

1.) Zeus’s having ideal points in the combat to have a break from action, allowing for different points to resupply, whether that is from premade boxes, or just random arsenals, having that ability to get soldiers more ammunition and medical on the ground is a key here. This can be extremely useful when zeus’s dictate specific ammunition types, if a zeus says only 7.62, having different ammo boxes littered throughout an enemy compound with the same ammo type, can make exploring an AO more valuable, and give even more importance to searching areas of extended combat. Recommendation here would be to also include medical kits as well, as they are often a struggle to keep up with especially while players are still learning ace medical, those supplies are invaluable.

2.) Utilizing vehicles for their inventory capabilities, if we have vehicles at the disposal of ground troops, telling them to load their kits into the vehicles allows players to have plenty of ammo at their disposal without having to have it on their person. These vehicles should be treated as defensible targets, and I think this would create a much more value driven guard for the vehicles, having enemies begin an attack towards a vehicle mid attack would create a value proposition for squad leads, as they either have to protect their supplies, or complete the mission. The benefit of using vehicles in this way is that it creates more tactical demands and forces players to be smart with the vehicles, rather than reckless. In addition using the vehicles to get from objective to objective allows players to not worry about stamina until they are in close combat, rather than running longer distances.

Both options that I highlighted above combined with the encouragement to lower carrying weights for combat, would resolve the issues that most of our players face currently, in my opinion. This does require more planning out of our zeus’s however I also think it provides them with more ways to create engaging missions and more combat options for players.

Interested in hearing what the feedback is to these ideas!

4

I think if the complaint is that people are out of position with stamina, the issue is not stamina but their playstyle. You should be looking at where your teammates are moving to and listening to radio calls.

I agree with the points outlined by alpha, usage of vehicles and resupplies should help combat the struggles.

Personally I like the stamina, it removes a bit of the feeling of having 1 man armies everywhere, equipped for every scenario.

5

I like it, and would suggest an edit to the parameters.
5.0x regen >> 4.0x and 1.0x terrain gradient multiplier >> 0.65x

In previous events something both I and Joal did with regularity was paradrop missions. Forcing players to not have a backpack was one way to reduce a one man walking arsenal and it worked. Now with stamina players are always encouraged to take less where possible. It means people will naturally specialise in roles of MG, AT, Demo, etc. If not everyone is carrying AT the mission dynamic changes. If everyone isn’t carrying an ambulance worth of medical supplies in their kit then medics serve a much greater purpose.
Additionally people love to abandon vehicles at the first chance they can get. Yes it is safer on foot, but the vehicle isn’t safe at all while abandoned. Once the action is over zeus intervention is usually required as squads ran too far to retrieve abandoned vehicles.

Example 1 - An enemy mortar pit was setup on a hillside. The squad leader wanted to walk 900m over hills to get there and leave the HMMVs abandoned. After walking less than 150m the squad was already tired, using the vehicles to push to 400m where contacts were spotted.

A different approach on flatter ground or utilising vehicles from the start would save on player’s frustration.

Example 2 - During NakOps one team was tasked to assault head on while the other flanked. 25 minutes of fighting later and the MRAP .50cal is over 300m away while 3 soft skinned vehicles it could have killed are taken out in the town. The team then runs on foot to the next objective through open terrain, getting over 1km from their vehicle and its spare supplies. The MRAP was not used in the op. The gun was never fired, the armour never used, the loaded spare supplies untouched, yet we still got an arsenal for supplies.

As AlphaEvolution pointed out, vehicles carry the supplies of your unit. They can lug around all the spare launchers, ammo boxes and medical supplies that soldiers need. If vehicles were utilised properly in our ops then there shouldn’t be a need for any arsenal mid-mission.

6

While I do agree that stamina does have a place, I feel that in a public server where anyone can Zeus or play, it does have its downsides.
A point to this, a lot of Zeus players will set their missions up with the mindset of there being no stamina due to this being the norm for the longest time, this is not something that can be fixed within a day, and while some warring about this would have been good, the point of it being public is that anyone can jump in and play, and if those players are coming form something like the Altis server, they will build their kits like they do there, and struggle with it, they may even quit and not come back.

Another point to make is that to balance the stamina, while you can say that a full team can share a load, this is all well and good when the server is at the full or half population, but from what I was seeing on the weekends, was that once it dipped below about 10 players, most people are doing 2 to 3 roles and hitting the weight very quickly, that is the hard part about balancing out the stamina , do you balance for low pop and have 1 man armies during full pop, or balance for full pop and have the offpeak players suffer.

I did have a suggestion to solve this, an odd one that would require a bit of work, but may work.
If the settings are moved from server side to mission side, there could be Mulitable missions set up with each type of play defined, The old ace settings (like old, bandages remove blue and such), and levels set up between, while this will take work, it will also allow Zeus’s to set the pace of a mission and allow players to have a say on what type of mission they would like, doing an escape mission with current setting is very hard as you have no control on what players are loading into there packs, so what might be a good contact for one player who is able to move, maybe to heavy for someone who is running a larger kit, making the Zeus have to balance for 2 types of players within the same mission, and in a way, the Zeus can not control.

The main reason I made this post was I heard a lot of newer players complaining about the stamina, and I have seen a few players leave and not come back due to it, I feel the screenshots from the last 2 nak ops make this point for me in my head, the numbers remaining at the end, while good, seemed to have dwindled a lot more with this last weeks. And this is no part on any Zeus’s that have run these ops, as I have noticed this with ops ran after the main ops and such after, but the screenshots just put it in a light, due to the low sample size this could be a misnomer, but there is lacking data to use this as a point.

While using vehicles is a good point, the point of who should be driving and for how long comes up, who should have to run back and get them or be stuck with them, while you may have a few who will, this is not always the case, and for small pop ops, is this practical.

A point to the ammo type, due to how many different guns there are, not all people will have the same ammo type, while this may be a player base vote to share mags, not all players will want to use the max calibre, or the same guns, for example, while the m4 and g36 are the same cal, they can not use the same mags as each other.
Is it on a Zeus to provide all ammo types, or give a full loadout at each point, what would stop players from abusing this function? And getting gear that was restricted at the start of a mission.

7

TEXN here,

Kudos gentlemen, good points all. I will restate, adding one, accuracy. ACE enabled is a learning process, on part of both the Zeus and the indiviual player. Between medical, fatigue and accuracy of the AI, they all are in the mix and dynamically affect gameplay. AI accuracy directly determines tactical movement, troop dispositon and support by fire missions, so I think a tweaking is indicated.

On a personal note, I now know my optimum kit weight. However, I realize it’s more than that. Mission requirements dictate much of one’s loadout. I have adjusted to the fatigue system, but in my view, the game is now much more complex, so setting up a perfect recipe for Zeus fun includes all of the above and will not be accomplised overnight.

Additionally, as we continue to improve, I think it is very important to keep everyone informed of tweaks, so that one may provide considered opinions regarding changes.

Regards,

8

I didn’t say much originally… and I will probably regret adding this now… but the cat already hit reply and ordered me to finish the form.

Most of the anti-stam points come from the public, rando, pick up group, “I want less complex” perspective… which absolutely has its place. And the pro-stam points almost universally come from the more private, familiar, craves cohesive, “I love complex” point of view. I hope there’s a group that straddle the line and enjoy both styles too.

It would seem that the zeus server has a personality conflict when it comes to mods that cause/require complexity. Without ace, stamina, etc, our zeus server can service both crowds with minor adjustments by the zeus and almost none by the player base. But with, it requires fairly substantial changes by both. These changes aren’t impossible or even uncommon, as ace and stamina are common mods/features throughout other servers and the game at large. But… reasons (above).

Is it possible to have a have a rich, complex zeus server with settings, mods and rules that caters to the wide open unknown public? Or is that reserved for only basic simple servers?

And what about the established player base who is striving to improve together as a group of friends? Does a simple server leave them looking to operate operationally in greener pastures?

Dancing all over the scales of online community.

9

I think the distance on which we should be able to run should be increased somewhere between 20%~30% to hit that sweet spot that most everybody likes which shouldn’t really break immersion and realism

Besides that i really don’t mind the stamina o7

10

Now that changes have been made, have complaints changed?

also, I still haven’t really heard any of the big stamina haters post their thoughts here.

I honestly believe that it’s not as big a deal as some folks have made it out to be but if someone wants to explain what I’ve missed I’m all ears :slight_smile:

11

I have not heard anyone complain about stamina ever since the changes

12

TEXN here,

Welcome to Zeus Special Event 20, with extra steps. Taking away the fatigue is emmersion breaking. I crafted some nice loadouts, that I could actually carry. I was even refining the loadout.

Of importance, if we continue with fatigue, is the need to know what the mission is before hand, so that one may customize the loadout. We are doing it backwards.

Regards,

13

I noticed one huge change with fatigue off… people are back to sprinting 100% of the time leading to a lot of separation solo behavior.