Mod Ban Appeal: Blackfish PIP & Laser mod

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Moderator: VileAce

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Deep1-1
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January 3rd, 2020, 10:55 am

Hi guys,

I hereby want to propose banning the "Blackfish PIP & Laser mod" from usage on all NAK Squad servers.

Findings:
  • The mod offers the player a continously computed impact point (CCIP) while being a blackfish gunner. Vanilla ArmA requires the player to zero in his guns from time to time in order to
    keep the shots on target and on crosshairs. While this is a realistic feature, the mod mentioned erases the need of zeroing in completely and makes the Blackfish even more of a "Frag Machine"
    than it already is under vanilla conditions.
  • The CCIP is only displayed when in the least zooming of the gunners sights. As soon as you zoom in, the CCIP disappears from the gunners view as the viewing angle decreases while zoom
    increases. That being said, you will not be able to see the CCIP once zoomed in.
  • Adding another aspect to the point listed before, the mod erases the possibility to zero in your guns when in the gunners view. As a result, as soon as you zoom in,
    a player will no more be able to align point of impact and crosshairs. Accordingly, the shots will hit outside the view angle of the gunner, which might pose a threat to fellow players on the ground.
  • I have tested the "offset error" described above on a hovering blackfisch and found the following offsets in meters depending on flightlevel at max zoom:
1.) ALT: 200m OFF: ~50m
2.) ALT: 250m OFF: ~66m
3.) ALT: 300m OFF: ~83m
4.) ALT: 350m OFF: ~105m
5.) ALT: 400m OFF: ~127m
6.) ALT: 450m OFF: ~149m
7.) ALT: 500m OFF: ~173m

Conclusion:
All of the above leads me to the conclusion that the mod mentioned above poses the inherit threat of teamkilling to players that are not fully aware of the effect the mod has on their
aiming. Additionally, this gets even more dangerous if the player has his maximum distance for the "friendly octagons" set to a low viewdistance due to his machines performance.
Moreover, I think the reduction of workload from the gunners is unnescessary. Let us be honest, there is not much to do as a blackfish gunner to be successfull: IFF, aim, zero in, fire and
watch your frag-count go up.
From my point of view, the Blackfish is a very mighty weapon system in vanilla with no need to get even easier to use (YES, I am neglecting that flying the beast might appear tricky to some
pilots and requires a little training to get the hang of it. And doubled YES, I neglect that flying the blackfish without good CAP being up, you are a turkey shoot for any AA or enemy CAP).
"Forgiving is harder then being forgiven."
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VileAce
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January 3rd, 2020, 11:21 am

Additionally, this gets even more dangerous if the player has his maximum distance for the "friendly octagons" set to a low viewdistance due to his machines performance.
I do not know where this rumor started, increasing the hex distance has almost zero impact on performance. Drawing lines on the screen might affect your FPS by 1/2 frame/sec.

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Deep1-1
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January 3rd, 2020, 12:02 pm

Thats very true Vile, I have no idea where this rumors come from either.
Still, as far as i have seen so far, there are quite some players that have a low range set for the octagons.

My assumption its that general "oh-my-fps-are-low-i-will-tune-down-everything"-habbit people have here and there.

Still, this is just a sideaspect for me. Even with the octagons at max distance, you might just TK when laying down fire in the AO as you
just don't see where you fire once zoomed in.
And before you even notice what happened, you have done bad to allies.
"Forgiving is harder then being forgiven."
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REAPER6
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January 4th, 2020, 5:56 am

I really don’t see the point in banning the mod.....your argument is because inexperienced players don’t take the time to id targets and carelessly fire rounds near friendlies might result in a team kill. Seems to me the mod is not the problem it’s the players that are not using it properly. The better option is if you don’t like what the mod does don’t use it. Some players might find an advantage in using it and work around any disadvantages the mod might cause. Banning mods because they don’t fit with your personal play style is a little excessive. Further more if a player goes through all the trouble to download a mod for blackfish gunning they must have an interest in gunning the blackfish so they obviously have some sort of idea what’s going on. Don’t assume players using the mod are not skilled enough to find a way to make it work for them and if they can’t or don’t like what it does they don’t have to use it. It’s the players personal preference and their responsibility to use it correctly.

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Deep1-1
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January 4th, 2020, 6:40 am

@ Reaper

Surely not, I do not appeal this for ban as it does not fit my personal understanding of the game, don't get me wrong on this.

For me, a mod that awards players (no matter how experienced) an additional threat of screwing up just by the way it works is the problem.
A mod that disconnects crosshairs from point of impact is just no good.
Additionally, the mod allows people to shoot from far more out than the vanilla aiming will allow, as it will compute the PIP literally anywhere,
even when shooting balistically.
In vanilla, as soon es you exceed max zeroing, you will neither hit nor - most probably - even shoot because you know you will screw up.

You have a point with what you say, and of course, players downloading it have an interest of gunning the Blackfish
and will most probably download it to increase their performance, which I support totally.
I just think this thing is the wrong way to do that.

Just in case you might have gotten me wrong on this:
As all appeals, this is just intended to be a poke for you guys that run the servers to think about. That being said, I fully support
whatever you think is best for the community and therefor decide on this matter, as I am only proposing something for you guys to decide.
This proposal has absolutely no intention of saying players using it are unskilled; If that was what was implied by my writing, appologies for that.
"Forgiving is harder then being forgiven."
"Think, press, talk..."

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WilliamTesla
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January 4th, 2020, 6:57 am

From my point of view in this topic I don't really see an issue with the mod itself, it makes life easier, true, but you have to keep in mind that server sidedly, without any mods required we can disable the recoil and the sway of the weapon, just think about it. This server isn't ment to be too hard, it's sort of an arcadeish server where both experienced and unexperienced players can have their fun and spend a good time working in cooperation. I do understand where you're going with the suggestion, but from what I can tell no matter how harder you make the game, how many hints and defenses you set up in order to protect players from friendly fire it will sometimes happen, often due to the new players not even knowing what they're doing, or even more often simply not caring, he might've been banned twice, had to appeal, but just gets online and, well, whatever happens happens. I don't see it fair that due to players like that the more experienced, or even new but careful and respectful players should get one of their mods limited.
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REAPER6
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January 4th, 2020, 9:47 am

I understand. Just realize we have requirements for approved mods. If a mod meets those requirements it gets accepted. A lot of mods are reviewed because a player/players have requested to use it on our server. It might not be a mod you like to use but someone saw an advantage to using it and denying them the option to use it based on the argument that it makes it hard to aim in my opinion is not enough to outright ban a mod. I think if a player can figure out how to take advantage of the mod and use it correctly they should be able to as long as it doesn’t break the game for other players. To my knowledge we have never received complaints/concerns from gunners or infantry units in regards to the mod being op or broken or saying the blackfish breaks the missions. I don’t see players getting any more kills friendly or enemy when using this as opposed to not using it. Seems like the mod makes it harder to aim zoomed in so should reduce a players ability to wreck enemy infantry. We have a lot of mods or options that some players choose not to use. For example you can turn off friendly markers if you choose. Doing so increases your chance of getting a friendly TK. It’s the players responsibility to use that option correctly.

I absolutely support your decision to bring this to the forum and discuss it. Sometimes we miss something and allow a mod we shouldn’t have. We do our best to review them and make sure they are appropriate to use on our servers. It really helps when players bring this stuff to our attention so we can note it and keep an eye on it to see if it has a negative effect for the server.

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VileAce
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January 4th, 2020, 10:17 am

What Reaper said.

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